On the Ladder Theory (very long)
Today is the 3rd birthday of Ochuk’s blog and I will be dedicating this post to a very special subject.
Introduction
Many of those who know me well have heard me talk about the “ladder theory.” I often find myself explaining this over and over to family members, friends, and acquaintances, not because they do not understand it, but because I have found it to be a profound tool of social understanding. The other night I had the privilege of sharing the theory with a friend’s sister whose eyes grew large with enlightenment. Afterwards I received an e-mail from her stating that she had shared it with one of her friends, who was at first skeptical, but soon persuaded. It was this event that inspired me to publish my findings and provide a resource for future reference to all who seek to better relate to the opposite sex in a world of every-growing uncertainty. It is also important to keep in mind that much of this is written with a bit of tongue in my cheek.
Prolegomena
The purpose of this essay will be to explain and move towards an understanding of the so-called “ladder theory” from a Christian perspective. Being a Christian, I have no other alternative perspective and will differ from much of the secular literature in my formulations of that perspective. According to Wikipedia, the free Internet encyclopedia, the ladder theory is a “pop psychology explanation of the ways in which men and women evaluate potential sexual partners and platonic friends of the opposite sex.” Popularized on the Internet, the theory has been subjected to much criticism and remains to be scientifically tested; yet it has a growing number of adherents.
Originally written as a satire, the theory has gained a community of enthusiasts who believe it offers a true sociological explanation of interactions of between men and women. Being one of those enthusiasts I have devoted much thought to it in light of my Christian presuppositions and have come to some diverging conclusions, yet retain many of the core premises that, if communicated charitably, will help single men and women to properly relate to one another.
At the outset two things must be noted before we begin our survey of the ladder theory: (1) the theory is an explanation put forward uniquely by men, and (2) the theory is inherently offensive to women. (2) most certainly follows from (1) in that the theory’s epistemology is accessible only through the experiences of men, hence challenging women to submit to its claims. But for a theory to have any kind of meaningful persuasive power it must match with, reflect, or correspond to the reality it refers. To dismiss it on the grounds of whom it originates is to commit a genetic fallacy. Still, the vexing problem remains that in order for the claims of the ladder theory to be tested one must rely on the knowledge given by men who are not at all without bias in their accounts.
With that said, it is quite understandable why women find the ladder theory offensive. First and foremost, the original formulations of the theory were written in a very bitter and crude demeanor that borders on misogyny. The way in which women were thought of and objectified in these early presentations is reprehensible and should be condemned by any ethically minded person. Second, it reveals an aspect of male nature, as we shall see below, that is often thought of as morally repugnant. Third, there is an insistent skepticism based on personal situations and experience that seem contradictory to the theory’s claims.
Perhaps the best objection to the ladder theory is that it depends upon gender stereotypes that are unsubstantiated and easily dismissed. I share this sentiment realizing that many gender stereotypes are bogus sociological constructions that find their root in ambiguous personal and cultural reasons. Yet generalizations must always be made if one is to say anything about the differences between men and women, and they should not to be thought of as rigid constraints that properly define femininity and masculinity. There are exceptions to every rule, but if one defines these generalizations broadly enough the less controversial they become. For our purposes, it should be said that the ladder theory is not in need of narrow definitions though they have been used in the past.
Explanation and Justification
The ladder theory seeks to answer such questions as “Can men and women be just friends?” “Why is it so difficult for men and women to be friends?” and “What do men want from women?” “Why do some men ‘get the girl’ and others do not?”
The premises of the ladder-theory are clearly seen in the following dialogue from the movie When Harry Met Sally:
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Sally: We are just going to be friends, OK?
Harry: Great, friends. It’s the best thing…You realize, of course, that we can never be friends.
Sally: Why not?
Harry: What I’m saying is - and this is not a come-on in any way, shape, or form - is that men and women can’t be friends, because the sex part always gets in the way.
The “sex-part” Harry refers to, as he makes clear, is not a “come-on” where he is stating his desire to have sex with Sally, but a recognition of an underlying sexual component to male and female relations that is unavoidable. This, of course, is hardly controversial and is virtually accepted by all men and women. It only becomes controversial when we consider it in a destructive and absolute sense proposing that men and women cannot or never could be friends. This requires explanation, for many of us have experienced friendship with the opposite sex and continue to do so.
Much of the confusion revolves around the idea of friendship and how it is defined. For purposes of this essay, we will loosely define it as “openness” between two persons who find pleasure in each of the other’s being. This openness can be casual or intimate, but it is always exercised by the choice to reveal one’s nature to the other in an affectionate fashion. Given this idea of friendship, it is not immediately obvious how the sexual components of male and female relationships give warrant to Harry’s absolute conclusion, but they go a long way in explaining how friendship might be hindered.
The ladder theory simply states that whenever you meet someone of the opposite sex you give a quick, unconscious mental rating as to how sexually or nonsexually attracted you are to them. It is at this moment when someone is “placed on the ladder,” be it high or low or somewhere in between. You might be disposed to think, “I like Jim but not as much as Sam,” or “I would like to be with Jane, but want more to be with Sally.”
At first, men and women assume that they operate in similar ways. Men believe that women, like them, rate every man they meet in a sexual way whereas women believe that men rate every woman they meet in a sexual and nonsexual way. It is here that the ladder theory meets its most contested point: the belief that men have only one (sexual) ladder and women have two (sexual and nonsexual) ladders.
As we said in the beginning how we come to such knowledge arrives solely by the experiences of the male. Most every man as most every woman has had the regrettable experience of having a friendship come to an end because the male thought there was something when there was actually nothing. In theory, what is happening is that the male is high on the female’s “friends ladder” while being under the false impression that he is high on her “good ladder.”
A man high on the friends ladder may think that he is really connecting with the woman by sharing intimate feelings, helping her through problems, and becoming close with her family thus feeling an openness unparalleled to his other female acquaintances. He thinks to himself, “Wow. I am really going somewhere with this girl. She must really like me. I don’t have this with any of my other female friends. I am going to ask her if she will be my girlfriend.”
The man “takes the plunge” so to speak and reveals his desire to the woman for a relationship, which is met with scorn. “What are you talking about,” she says, “I thought we were just friends. I had no idea you liked me like that.” The woman feels betrayed, the man confounded, and the whole relationship in turmoil.
What happened is that the man was essentially “ladder-jumping,” trying to leap from the woman’s friends ladder on to her good ladder. To her perplexity and dismay she finds this to be a grossly unnatural state of affairs and “kicks him off” the good ladder where he plummets to the abyss.
Now it must be noted that the abyss is not necessarily a bad place. To be sure the pain and misery of rejection and a broken friendship are never to be desired, but it is only in the abyss the man realizes that there are two ladders. This is why we maintain that the epistemological basis for the theory derives solely through the experiences of the male, for it is clear to any man who has gone through the experience.
The basic idea in all of this is that women are somehow able to be much more sexually disinterested than men with those they are close to. With this innate ability, women can be more open with certain men and yet have no sexual or romantic inclination towards them whatsoever. Men, on the other hand, find this excruciatingly difficult. Of course, men can be “friendly” to women and, in some sense, “friends” with them as well, but only if those women rank low on the ladder. A man is inclined to be more romantic or sexual when the friendship becomes more open and intimacy levels go up. Hence, some have gone so far as to propose that men may have a “friends zone” on their ladders:
This may be the best explanation as to why men are friends with women, but it cannot be ruled out that they are altogether sexually disinterested in them. For whatever reason if Jane, Michelle, and Julie were removed from Tom’s ladder, he would have a harder time viewing Laura, Kelly, and Tonya as friends. This phenomena is all too typical of men who may be incarcerated or on military duty where there are simply no other women to be found. Even someone who is normally a “bottom-runger” can find themselves at the top of a man’s ladder given the right circumstances.
It is very important for women to understand that men do not have the desire to be in a romantic or sexual relationship with any and all women they meet. Having one ladder does not imply that anymore than having two ladders implies that women either want to be friends or romantic with any and all men they meet. However, it does imply that there are no women that men want to be friends with whom he would not consider having some sort of romantic or sexual relationship. Hence, a man can be “friends” with a woman who is low on his ladder but he is never sexually disinterested in her.
Male Sexuality
We began by acknowledging that part of the ladder theory’s offensiveness is in that it reveals an aspect of male-nature that is often thought of as morally repugnant. The man’s inability to be sexually disinterested in a woman is commonly seen as a dehumanizing and morally defective. Men of a more noble character are imagined to be those who are free from such impulses until they become sublimely appropriate. Yet we maintain that there is no such man.
Male sexuality can be troubling, but it is not difficult to understand. For whatever reason, feminine periodicals seem to spend a countless amount of words analyzing it thinking it to be somehow mysterious. But the hard truth of it is that much of it is rooted in how the woman looks. Certainly there are deeper factors like personality and particular ideas of femininity, but for the most part it boils down to physical attraction especially in those crucial moments of first impression. However, it is clearly true that attraction may be enhanced (or worsened) by such deeper issues that often serve as the factors for energizing the motion by which a woman moves up or down the ladder:
Male sexuality can be easily demonstrated in the metaphor of the light switch. If you are “on” you go on to the ladder accordingly. If you are “off” you are in the abyss. The deeper issues are determinant of how many watts run through the switch and make the woman shine brightly. Hence, Jane is “on” and depending on how moody or funny she is, she will fluctuate accordingly.
Objections
The genius of the ladder theory is that it is remarkably simple. But like all good theories it has its anomalies, though none of which are fatal. In this section we will try to look at some common objections and questions people have with the ladder theory. While there are many questions and objections I could answer I have chosen to examine the three most common ones from women and one question from men for the sake of space and fairness.
I have to be friends with a guy before I even begin to like him. The issue here is familiarity. Most likely, such “liked-men” never were on the friends ladder, but low on the good ladder even though he was not known very well. Like the male’s single ladder, it is entirely possible for women to have a kind of “friends zone” where the man may fluctuate up or down. Attraction is always the decisive factor, but it may be indecipherable because (1) it not all that strong and (2) can be obscured by the affectionate nature of the friends ladder. The woman herself may not even be able to tell which ladder the man is on, hence the familiar experience of “not knowing where we are at” or “I’m not sure how I feel about him;” a state commonly expressed as “limbo.”
This has baffled ladder theorists for decades as the only data we have to go one are of the conflicting testimonies of women. Often we are lead to conclude that perhaps women are either unaware of the two ladders, or experience confusion in trying to decipher the moment of attraction. If we were to determine the mechanism by which a man is pulled off the friends ladder and put on the good ladder it would be an astonishing discovery that would forever change the course of our field. As of now, all we have are hypotheses, but many are either flimsy or untestable.
Nevertheless, this objection is easily answered in that it misconceives the nature of the good ladder. One only needs to show her a picture of Matthew McConaughey, Keith Urban or Jude Law to show that men are put on the good ladder immediately. The issue is not whether they are known personally, but whether they are attractive. It is here that both men and women can take comfort in knowing they are more alike than different in this area.
Are you saying that every man I’m friends with wants to date or sleep with me? What the man wants to do with you largely depends on his values of love and sex, but the short answer is “yes” if you are on the ladder. This does not imply that he is trying to make those things come to pass, but that he is not altogether disinterested in them. His interest in them corresponds with how high or low you are on the ladder, and his motivation for them depends upon how readily available you are. For example, many men are attracted to married women and even rank them on their ladder. However, depending on the man’s values he will either avoid placing himself in compromising positions with her out of respect for her marriage, or he will plow ahead with no regard for it whatsoever. The ladder theory does not cease to operate after marriage or if other restricting morals are suddenly made significant. Ethical codes only impose themselves on the people involved, not on the theory itself.
What? Men will put me on their ladder even if I am unavailable? Ladder theorists are generally in agreement that if you have been rated you have been put on the ladder. But some ladder theorists have observed that certain men truly do become disinterested in women who get married or get a boyfriend and develop what has been called “the shelf.” For example, Jane may start going out with Travis, and Tom, who may or may not be in despair over this turn of events, takes Jane “off” the ladder perhaps out of spite or indifference.
Jane, however, cannot be thrown into the abyss for she still is interesting to Tom, so he holds on to her in a disinterested way that seeks preserves latter interest. However, the mechanisms of this are immensely complicated and are hardly self-evident. The only real evidence for it is when the woman becomes available again via break up or divorce. The man suddenly finds her in the same place on the ladder or even higher than she was before.
How can I tell which ladder I am on? This of course is the million dollar question for any male seeking a high ladder female who is friendly to him. While it can never be provable there are several question-tests that have been found to be useful in discerning the friends ladder from the good ladder:
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1) Do you make dates with her without telling her they are dates?
2) Does she pull uncomfortably away from hugs or does she linger?
3) Does she put make-up on around you or for you?
4) Does she promptly return your phone calls and e-mails or “is she really bad at it”?
5) When she tells you that she is busy do you convince yourself that a) she is a “free spirit”, b) she “needs some space, or c) you “have a good heart”?
Towards a Christian Ethic
If the ladder theory is to be accepted it would go a long way in helping men and women relate to one another. Particularly, Christianity singles often find themselves in a morass of frustration, confusion, and pain that can often be avoided. I am well aware that much of these same problems are present in a non-Christian context and I hope that my suggestions will be helpful to that as well, though to date, the ladder theory has only been used to embitter men and scorn women in the secular arena, which is most unfortunate.
For Christians, sex is inseparable from marriage. As I have commented before, authentic sexuality is innately monogamous and inherently requires commitment to one person to be satisfying, edifying, and honoring.
Hence, men are to pursue whoever may be at the top their ladders with these values in mind. Moreover, they are not to be ashamed of their sexuality, though they must be on guard of its constant presence and impulses. They should allow it to play a dignified part of their motives towards women they are interested in. Men should not be made to feel strange for “being forward” or “up front” about their interest in women and would do well to make such motives known in a gentle and respectful manner. However, if a man finds a married or otherwise unavailable woman on his ladder he should be sensitive to her presence and guarding of his motives. He should be restrained yet cordial with her realizing she is a person, not an object, who has deeply meaningful relationships that would be violated if he were to allow his impulses and emotions to control him.
Moreover, men should not scorn a woman’s friends ladder even if he does not want to be on it. Women genuinely value their friendships, especially with men, and can be easily hurt when they are rejected. At the same time, though, women must realize that they cannot be as open as they would like with certain men. There is a peculiar egoism that can be gained from the attention of men that is particularly enslaving.
It is the author’s experience that women do not respect a man who waits one to two years in friendship to tell her that he is attracted to her. Nor should he be respected, because he is always concealing the truth and is too scared to inquire what ladder he might be on. But it has been found that women do respect one who is upfront about his intentions, and respond much more gently either tenderly accepting or tactfully rejecting him. This makes the dating process much more clear and rejection process much less painful. And this being the case, one might find you at the top of their ladder who is at the top of yours.
February 20th, 2006 at 11:56 am
You know, this is really brilliant. What I had never realized, though, was that women have two ladders … but it makes so much sense.
February 20th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
Doesn’t it?
February 20th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
I’ve been free falling in the abyss for years.
February 20th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
I had a lot more success when I mucked the “friends for a year” crap. Pastors talk about it sometimes, but they didn’t do it, and neither does anyone else.
I think women expect you to go on a limb for them. I think the “friends-first” thing invariably puts you on the friend ladder. Timidity is not a virtue. As an added bonus, if you were never friends, you lose nothing by asking her out.
That doesn’t mean you make thoughtless decisions. If you’re a Christian, and are not sure whether she cares about her relationship wih the Lord, dating is a pretty stupid way to find out, for myriad reasons.
February 20th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
At least some men must have two ladders, given the fact that I have tried and failed to make the jump before. Unless that means that I was just in the “friends zone.”
The phrase “female periodicals” made me laugh.
February 20th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
Can’t we all just talk to Dr. Phil?
February 20th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Megan, I am afraid not. The issue with your guy is that there were several women above you on his ladder that placed you in the friends zone.
February 20th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
How are participants ladders effected by a committed relationship, i.e. marriage (assuming they have some moral fortitude). Is everyone shelved? A much-expanded friend-zone?
February 20th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
So who do we have to kill to get above the “Friend Zone”?
February 20th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Think carefully before you start killing. Your guy may or may not like this. If he’s of any kind of moral stuff, I’d imagine not … though somewhere inside him, he would think it kinda cool.
February 20th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
This theory assumes that every person always has someone they want to date? I think that sometimes, the top of the good ladder for women, and the only ladder for men may have a spot reserved for someone they haven’t met yet - or a dream of someone, if you will. They might have a lot of people on their ladders, but no one has yet to reach that space that they’re holding onto. What’s your position on that?
February 20th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Pat, I think it is important for us to acknowledge married people who are on our ladders. Marriage+moral fortitude does not mean everyone is “shelved.” The shelf is a very controversial idea and is difficult to locate. We only observe it after break ups. Moral fortitude, however, may be a variable that drives one down the ladder, but not necessarily.
Sanda, I don’t believe that would be a wise course of action. Kidnapping is much more fun.
February 20th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
Laura, that is an interesting point. I have no real answer at this time. For one, I believe that there is a certain “boiling point” where the someone gets to a certain rung on the ladder and the man or woman becomes willing to make a move of some sort. More work is needed, however, if we are to create another zone–something I am not comfortable doing.
February 20th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
Adam…my opinions, even three years past, still have not changed.
I love that you blogged about this.
February 21st, 2006 at 1:40 am
I can say I’m a living proof of the ladder theory. I cannot, for the life of me, find a single female soul in MN who would remotely put me on the REAL ladder - I’ve tried to wait years to ask some girls out after being good friends with them, yada yada… abyss, hello, abyss.
Then I met Sara, and boom we both knew right away we weren’t just gonna be friends, so we started dating, and got married… I think I shocked a lot of people telling them that I was dating someone from WA at the time!
February 21st, 2006 at 1:51 am
I was more asking about how the ladder would work once you get married. I was just trying to phrase it in a way that would make me sound smart. Last time I try that. Some people have a way with words, other’s… not have way.
February 21st, 2006 at 9:32 am
I ran this by my wife last night, and she confirmed it.: they do indeed have two ladders. She also confirmed that it is indeed impossible to switch ladders. Although, she said she could imagine re-meeting somebody after a long time (like 10-20 years) and “reclassified” them. But she admitted it was a rare situation and difficult to say for sure.
February 21st, 2006 at 9:55 am
Chrissy, this is good news. The ladder theory is standing the test of time.
Ken, perhaps Minnesota is the land of women with exceptional friends ladders?
Pat, I must admit that one of my greatest curiosities pertaining to the institution of marriage is how it affects the ladder theory. Since marriage is an ethical code of sorts, my guess is one needs to “cultivate the spouse” in order to keep him or her at the top of the ladder. Even so, however, there inevitably times where someone outside the marriage is higher on the ladder, otherwise adultery would not be a reality or a temptation.
Ed, that is absolutely fascinating. I don’t think I have ever had so much positive data come in from a married women. I am very happy to know that the theory faired so well.
February 21st, 2006 at 11:34 am
I could see a 10-20 year scenario, where a woman revisits her ladder. This is especially true if the man has lost a lot of weight and made a lot of money.
February 21st, 2006 at 12:41 pm
I just love how simple us guys are. 1 ladder. That’s it. You may be our friend, but you’re on the ladder anyway, because there’s no where else you can go.
As far as marriage is concerned, it needs to be re-iterated that the ladder theory explains our natural, subconcious evaluation and classification of women, regardless of anything else. Marriage, I believe, does not replace the ladder, because you can’t get rid of the ladder. “Cultivation” is perhaps a good word here, Adam. Amanda (my wife) was at the top of my ladder the day I met her. My heart’s goal in marriage now is to cultivate our relationship to keep her at the top of the ladder. It would be foolish and naive to say married men don’t notice other women. And it would be hypocritical and adulterous for a married man to rank another women above his own wife, even if he does not act on it. So the goal in marriage isn’t to pretend other women don’t exist (because they do and you can’t help that), but to drink water from your own cistern and cultivate the relationship so that she is first in your heart and the top rung of your ladder - and in contrast all other women will be in the “friend zone”.
February 21st, 2006 at 3:12 pm
One friend said there are two ways a man could successfully leap ladders. One was the one ed and kevin mentioned where there is a signficant time lapse plus potential changes for either party. The other was a series of “opportunities” or events shocking the woman into seeing the man in a whole new light. I am in agreement with both of these suggestions. And I am a woman.
February 21st, 2006 at 3:15 pm
Also, if he starts doing drugs, that is a turn-on for the “awwwww, he just needs me to change him” types.
February 21st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
i was offended by this theory when i was first exposed to it, and at some point either forgot about it or chose to block it out because it made me feel uncomfortable around my male friends. i feel generally quite safe around them, but when i allow myself to consider them being sexually interested in me, i start to feel very not safe…
so i gave individual flowers to three boys who live together for valentine’s day because boys don’t receive enough flowers, generally speaking, and none of us had valentines. one knew about the other two and was fine. one worried. the other was entirely too happy about it. oops. should have been obvious.
i relearned my lesson.
QUESTION: as far as the third, who tried to drunkenly confess his thoughts to me a few days later (which a deftly avoided) and who i briefly clarified things with when he was sober, i am at a loss. he is very near the top of my friends ladder. he is intelligent, funny, interesting and interested in conversation, etc. i, perhaps selfishly, do not want to give him up or restrict spending time with him. now that i have made my lack of interest in a romantic relationship clearly known (it was implicit for years before), do i have responsibility still to “protect” him from being interested in me, or does it fall on his shoulders to protect himself by saying no if he feels it to be necessary?
i think the reason i am offended by this theory (or i’m just offended by the way life IS) is because i feel like the responsibility falls on my shoulders. like i need to assume that every boy wants to get me in bed so i have to watch how i stand, what i wear, what i say, how i look at him or don’t look at him and avoid, at all costs, accidentally touching him. that, i think, is bull. i do not want to have to live like that.
so there.
February 21st, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Julia, your contribution to the discussion is well appreciated. It is always good to see our hypotheses verified.
Ah, Renee, this is a delicate situation. There are several variables that I did not discuss in my essay, one of which is inebriation. Inebriation always reduces the “friends zone” no matter how slight. There are two possibilities your male friend’s ladder has: 1) You are somewhere in the middle close to the friends zone and inebriation made things more “honest; or 2) you are at the top of his ladder. From what you have written, and of course I could be wrong, we can rule out 1) and assume 2), because you implied that this has been the story for “years.” That amount of time plus your innate openness is a recipe for “ladder-jumping” (something he would like to do, but knows he cannot, or has tried and failed), therefore a fall into the abyss is likely.
It is obvious that both you and the man want to avoid the abyss altogether. I do not think it is your sole responsibility to keep this from happening. After all, a woman’s friends ladder functions with its own peculiar potency, though it is not as compelling as the good ladder. Be that as it may, I know from what little I know of you, you are a VERY open girl. I know for a fact that I would have the same problems if I lived in close proximity to you, because the combination your emotional vulnerability and unassuming good looks is all too bracing. And this is the reason why your friend need to take some responsibility and either learn how to restrain himself as to value your friendship, or make an “all-or-nothing” ultimatum.
I could tell you not be as open with him, but that is about as likely as the sun not rising tomorrow.
February 22nd, 2006 at 5:03 am
Holy hell…I thought this was a reaaally old blog entry that Lara linked. This is new? Am I crazy, or did you just re-post something you wrote years ago?
February 22nd, 2006 at 8:07 am
It is an updated re-articulation of the theory from a Christian perspective.
February 22nd, 2006 at 2:32 pm
I can see this being verified. It certainly lends clarity to why men and women misunderstand one another. I remember a guy in high school lamenting to all these girls about how no girl put him on the Good Ladder, only on the Friends Ladder. They were all being kind, understanding, and sympathetic, telling him one day he’d be on some girl’s Good Ladder.
But do you think a guy has a better chance of getting on the Good Ladder if he removes himself, or avoids, the Friends Ladder opportunities? Women seem to like men who are mysterious; avoiding the friendship ladder would certainly increase his mystery factor.
Mystery is certainly a factor worth considering for male and female ladders. I think increased mystery (more unknowns) allows men and women to input their own ideals where they have no information, which then increases the attraction they have to that mysterious individual.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:25 pm
The Abyss!
February 23rd, 2006 at 9:58 pm
I would challenge every women reading this to ask themselves: what guy on your ‘friends’ ladder haven’t you considered dating, sleeping with, or sharing emotional/physical/spiritual intimacy? If I honestly ask myself this question about any male I have spent an hour or more with I answer that I have one ladder.
I like the idea of the ladder theory but must testify it is not true in my life, I am not offended by it either.
I am a better person for knowing the theory, thank you Adam. But I really wonder if women honestly attend or deal with their deep desires.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
my unwanted suitor is a perfect example of that. i find him fantastic as a friend and have spent many hours with him, even one-on-one every great once in awhile. but there is not a part of me that has ever wanted to pursue a romantic or physical relationship with him - i think your mention of sharing emotional and spiritual intimacy is interesting, because i think the frequent desiring of those things without a hint of desiring physical intimacy might be the difference between men and women that makes the ladder theory true.
February 25th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
I definitely have 2 ladders. I’ve never had a guy jump ladders. Within an hour of meeting a guy (provided we interact during that hour), I have placed him on one of 2 ladders. Sometimes the good ladder is entirely empty. That does not mean that it is easier for a guy to jump from the friends ladder. It is still impossible. I have allowed guys to try to make the switch, and it just never works. Also, I’d like to add that any guy who wants to be REMOVED from the top of the good ladder, having acknowledged me as being at the top of HIS ladder, will likewise fall into the abyss.
Oh, and AMEN to the last paragraph.
February 25th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
This theory is so true that I cannot contain my mind’s glee over gaining such clarity!
I’m sure every guy has his own story/ies regarding this. One example I have is a girl I knew in high school. I was kind of interested, but I’ve always needed to be friends first before wanting to date a girl. I think guys like me who generally have really high standards, make every girl start out in the “friend zone” (perhaps at the top of the friend zone) and allow them to move up over time. Anyway, so I got to know her better and became more interested. Then one day we were talking and she was like, “you know, I used to have a crush on you a few months ago, but now we’ve just become really good friends so that could never happen.” What the (*&@%! So as she was moving up my ladder, at some point I was switched to her “friends” ladder. It worked out in the end - I’m engaged to a MUCH better girl - but I really saw the ladder theory work there.
Thanks, Adam.
And to concerns such as Renee’s, I don’t think you have the full responsibility of trying to control other guy’s feelings, but you should be aware of how men perceive women’s attention towards them. You should be cautious as a result, but everyone IS responsible for their own actions/attitudes. I like to explain things with examples, so the best I could think of was a woman walking down the street in very seductive clothing. The men who lust over her are doing the wrong thing. However, she is not making it any easier for them, and shouldn’t be surprised if they ask for her number or stare. Does this help? I hope so.
February 27th, 2006 at 8:30 am
Thank you all for your responses.
2e, as to the issue of removing oneself from opportunities of friendship in order to focus on the Good ladder is a strategy I have employed, and have found little success with it–if success is defined in getting on the Good ladder. Mystery only takes you so far–until you are known–something that must happen if the relationship is to have any kind of meaning. Perhaps that helps explain why women would have a crush on a man at first, but in the end put him on the friends ladder.
Jill, I wrote most of this with the question, “Would Jill agree with this?” in mind, so I am happy to know that you have been informed by it, though I am not surprised we differ. While I don’t doubt what you tell me is true in your case, I would have a hard time believing other such women who testify to two ladders are self-deceived. Of course, we can never know for sure, and for what its worth I always felt like I was (happily) on your friends ladder.
Susan, your case of the male asking to be removed from the top of your good ladder while you were at the top of his makes little sense. Are you sure there was not someone above you on his? That would be my intuition, but if what you say is true the man in question is most disturbed.
Chris, thank you for your insights. Your research in this area is a valuable contribution.
February 27th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Oh Adam, this is why we are friends– it is great! Regardless of ladders or not, the value of our friendship is immeasurable to me, thank you!
February 27th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Such is the life of Adam …
March 2nd, 2006 at 12:18 am
Follow up…
I asked my woman (her name is Katie) about this and she agreed. She thought (and this pertains to my example) that many women will initially put men on the “good” ladder at first until they get to know them. At some point, most men are switched to the “friends” ladder.
Thus, it seems that one-way transfers are possible, but only from “good” to “friends”. It should also be noted that this transfer must take place near the bottom of the “good” ladder. If a man gets too high, transfer becomes impossible, and the abyss is certain doom.
This might fit with what Jill was saying, in that women DO evaluate men like that, but once those men are on the “friends” side, they’re stuck. Guys will constantly re-evaluate, however, for as long as they know the woman.
March 15th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
As a married woman, I think there needs to be a little clarification on the “cultivating your spouse” suggestion. Though I am certain this was meant with positive intentions, I found myself feeling offended. I thought I would run this idea by my husband to see what his reaction would be from a male perspective. I asked him how he would feel if someone told me that I need to cultivate him. To my surprise, he had the same reaction I did. I could tell he was offended and he said that it would make him feel like he was not able to meet expectations as my husband. We talked about the ladder theory and he suggested that the issue is about men having to cultivate their minds (rather than their spouses) to keep their wives at the top of the ladder.
March 31st, 2006 at 10:09 am
[…] never seen at work. I did pretty well for the most part, but somehow got onto the topic of the ladder theory, because I scoffed at some girl’s assertion that she treats every guy she meets as if they we […]
April 28th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Renee,
If you insist on being friends with men you suspect have a one-sided interest in you, be aware you may leave some really hurt guys left in your wake,realize you’re going to have a lot more unwanted suitors than you would otherwise, and be prepared for stalkers. Sorry to be dramatic or politically incorrect… but where do you think stalkers come from? They often think they have a chance, often because of the actions of the woman they are interested in.
As an aside, we all know many men are content with physical intimacy without emotional intimacy (e.g., sex without committment). This causes a lot of girls to get hurt.
The flipside we never hear is that many women are content with emotional intimacy without physical intimacy. This causes a lot of guys to get hurt, and in my opinion is just as selfish as men looking only for sex.
January 17th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Here’s another manifestation of the ladder theory that i thought of while reading through the comments. That is the “Mt Rushmore Phenomenon”. Perhaps you’ve heard of couples (this is generally frowned upon in Christian circles and for good reason) who let each other have a Mt. Rushmore, that is, a list of 4 women who they are allowed to sleep with if given the opportunity. Basically what the wife is saying is that “I’ll acknowledge/allow 4 women (usually celebrities) to be ahead of me on the ladder”.
They do this for 2 reasons,
1) because they think that it makes them more vauable on the ladder (”wow youre wife lets you have a Mt Rushmore…she’s cool”) and
2) because the chances of you finding opportunity to exercise the Rushmore Clause are slim to none. (And if you don’t believe that, try putting your wife’s best friends on your Rushmore).
As for the women having two ladders, my first thought was that at the bottom of the ladders, the two ladders actually come together to form one. Basically most men enter a woman’s ladder on this unified portion of the ladder. This is where they would stay if no other data points are given. But as she gets to know him, and he ascends the ladder, eventually he gets to the point where it forks and she subconsciously puts him on one of the ladders. For each woman this point is probably different. Yes, men can jump from one ladder to the other, but i think the unified ladder theory might have some merit. any thoughts?
January 23rd, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Renee, what Mike said was 100% correct. Both men who are, “players,” and women who string along a stable of guys for money/comfort/attention are simply two sides of the same coin. They are both using their attractiveness to prey on others.
Another key point of the Ladder Theory and other unifying theories is that on an evolutionary basis, the primary driver for men and women is achieved in different ways. High status males go for younger attractive women (high status women), and typically cycle through several of them. High status females seek out attractive/confident/powerful men (high status men) and wish to establish a stable relationship. Therefore, there is a natural tension between the two biological strategies.
This can frequently set up a, “negotiation,” situation. If a person is in the, “weaker,” negotiation position, they yield some of their power to ensure that, “a deal,” will be made. For women, they are faster to sleep with the man she wants because she’s hoping that this will obligate him into a relationship. For men, they are faster to provide a relationship (support, security, comfort, etc.) because he’s hoping it will obligate the woman into sleeping with him. In healthy negotiations–where there is relatively small disparity between the parties–there is a fair give & take. However, when there is a radical disparity, the weaker party will be more desperate to make the deal rather than just walk away from the table. They start to WAY over compensate, hoping that this will convince the stronger party to make the deal. But this becomes counter-productive and frequently backfires. Instead, the stronger party senses the massive disparity, and subconsciously understands that they can, “do better.” (i.e. have a healthy/equal relationship with a more attractive person rather than be in total control of an unhealthy relationship with the person they are currently dealing with).
Hope this helps.
January 23rd, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Bryan,
About the Mt. Rushmore comment. This is a good point. The reason they are famous celebrities, etc. is exactly because they are unlikely to ever happen, and the other spouse knows it. In reality, there is, “The Mt. Rushmore,” that the spouses will ADMIT to each other, and then potentially there are other people (i.e. the wife’s best friend), who are actually higher on his ladder than his own wife.
Of course, he keeps this knowledge to himself. This happens on the women’s side as well. This is why I laugh when a woman will be with her husband, point to a stunningly attractive woman, and then ask her husband, “Do you think she’s prettier than me?” What a loaded question. If he tells the truth, she is devistated, an if he lies, deep down she’ll know it. I haven’t figured out yet why men don’t frequently point to Brad Pitt or James Bond and ask their women the same question. In any event, people ought not ask questions they don’t want to hear the answer to. Whether or not another woman is more beautiful than HER is not the issue. The important issues the wife should be concerned about are: 1) Does he find his ME attractive? (Remember, we can have several people on our ladders at any given time) and 2) Do our shared beliefs, values, history, experiences, devotion, etc. outweigh any advantage that the stunningly beautiful stranger may have over the wife. THAT is the real issue when we’re talking about a committed relationship.
To find a spouse, the ideal is to try to, “top out your ladder,” and then marry that individual. However, we are all rational beings and want our marriages to work. So when it comes to marriage, another factor people consider is whether there is a healthy ladder disparity (i.e. roughly equal power within the relationship). It would be foolish for a person to believe or hope that their spouse will ALWAYS be at the top of their ladder. Temptation is unavoidable, even after the vows take place. The difference is–how do you RESPOND to that temptation? This is where the ideals of Christianity can come into play.
I also agree about the, “both sexes actually only have one ladder,” concept. The original Ladder Theory was written 12 years ago. Since then, there have been several developments, changes, observations, etc.
Visit www.ladderwiki.com for more details.
Hope this helps.
January 29th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Hi, I just want to say thanks so much for this. I’m already in a relationship (20 months so far
) but it has shed new light on the way guys are wired. I told my boyfriend about the ladder theory then asked him “is it true that a guy is interested in dating/sleeping with/marrying any of his friends who are girls?” (other factors, eg. them being non-Christian or already married aside). And he said “Yep.” It didnt’ make me at all jealous, it was just kinda cool to see the ladder theory in action 
I also used it when helping a male friend with his “girl problems”. He was very confused about his friendship (when he wanted something more) with this girl, and she’d said “Not now” to him. We went through a fwe reasons about why she may have said this, when she still messages and calls him a lot and enjoys talking to him. That is when I remembered the ladder theory, which I explained, telling him that maybe he is at the top of this girl’s “friends” ladder, which is commonly misinterpreted by guys as being at the top of her “good” ladder. He asked me if it was possible to jump to the “good” ladder. I said, yes, it is possible- to which he said “Tell me how!! I’m on too many damned friends ladders!!!” but then I had to break the news there is no fool-proof way- it just happens, sometimes.
It got to the point where he said he didn’t think he could handle being on her friends ladder with no chance of jumping to the good ladder- which he’d already tried. We came to the conclusion he may just have to end up removing himself from both ladders- breaking off the friendship. He is going to gives things another shot with this girl, and once I meet her and can watch her behaviour I hope I find evidence that she was honest with her “not now” and that it wasnt code for “not ever”. From what I’ve heard of her behaviour though, and what I know from my own experience of being a girl in her position, and from what I know of the ladder theory though, I don’t hold a lot of hope. But at least my friend has had a lot of light shed on the inner workings of a girl’s view of guys, and he was very thankful and said I’d been very helpful.
So, again, thanks! You are helping people all the time
January 29th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
I’ve now read a few more comments and it seems there is a bit of a debate on whether guys can jump from the friends ladder to the good ladder. As I indicated in my last post, I believe whole-heartedly it is possible. Actually, I know it is possible. It has happened to me! (Ie. Guys have managed to jump from my friends ladder to my good ladder).
But like I also said before, there is no certain method or fool-proof way of doing it. It just happens, sometimes. I think this is especially so for women and men who have known each other since childhood. As kids, girls only have one ladder (and i’m guessing boys would have a ‘friends’ ladder, unlike later in life?) Anyway, back to girls. All our boy friends are on our friends ladder… then, when we reach 13 or 14 the good ladder develops. And sometimes, some of the boys who were on the friends ladder switch over to the good ladder. This may happen at that age (13 or whatever) or it may happen later (16 or 17) like it did for me.
So guys- it IS possible! I’m just not sure how
March 9th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Leah,
There is a way for a man to jump from one ladder to another specifically from friends to good. The solution is for the man to stop doing the things which cause him to be on the friends ladder and start doing the things which cause him to be on the good ladder. Things like gently teasing about harmless stuff, learning how to create attraction, not handing over his male power, being cocky and funny, having self confidence. It is more difficult to get off the friends ladder than it is not to ever be on it.
Best advice to give to your friend is don’t try to get off the friends ladder, learn how never to get on it and find some new prospects.
April 2nd, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Although technically it’s possible to jump from the friends ladder to the good ladder, it is unlikely. In 99.9% of the cases, it’s better for the guy to focus his energy elsewhere–on another potential girlfriend, for example. If it helps, think of the, “friend vs. potential romantic partner,” as a cumulagive GPA like you have in school. If a guy is on the friends ladder for a long time, that’s the equivalent of having a poor GPA for many semesters. If he wants to significantly raise his GPA to the point that he’s on the “good” ladder, he has to accumulate A LOT of time displaying the correct attractive behaviors in order to change people’s impressions of him (i.e. be more confident and assertive, get into better shape, etc.).
And for the women who say that their boyfriend IS their best friend—a short lesson in logic:
Being, “friends,” and being on the good ladder are not mutually exclusive. A man can be on the good ladder and still be friends/friendly with the girl. However, she STILL FINDS HIM ATTRACTIVE. If the woman finds the man attractive (i.e. she would date him), then by definition he is on the good ladder. It’s even possible to be, “friends,” with a guy who is on the good ladder and not be dating him–for example, maybe one or both currently are dating/married to somebody else. Maybe there is a long distance problem, etc. But the point is: there remains an underlying physical attraction. The problem with many guys is that they tend to be OVERLY nice to the girl–typically because of an inner fear that they might not be accepted/validated by the girl if they weren’t over-the-top nice. Being overly nice is a major sign that the guy secretly thinks that he is unworthy of the girl—even if the girl originally found him attractive, he is killing his attractiveness by being too nice and supplicative.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Ok OK… found it.
Uhm…. interesting idea. Not sure if it’s really that helpful though. Here’s why…
So… I feel that the ladder was created in response of fear. So therefore everyone is going to look at this everything fear crops up instead of being MEN and doing something about it. I.e. get the tails from out between the legs and start doing something. If the girl likes ya… bam you’re in, if not… bam don’t worry about it, continue to be friends… who knows, maybe hearts will change someday. If friends isn’t possible. Move on!
And gosh… what’s wrong with being friends? Maybe we all need to work on that, regardless of what our sexual impulses are?
Maybe it’d be good to work on keeping those at bay? Hmm…
PEACE!
June 15th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
“2) Does she pull uncomfortably away from hugs or does she linger?
3) Does she put make-up on around you or for you?
4) Does she promptly return your phone calls and e-mails or “is she really bad at it”?”
Can I get an amen? Because that is a perfect 5-question checklist for determining if a girl likes you or not. If she cancels other plans and puts on makeup for you, you’re in. If she freezes up when you try to compliment her or mysteriously gets very busy when you touch her, STOP PUSHING.
Of course I can’t speak for every woman, and I certainly can’t speak for the men, but this article perfectly describes my relationships with the opposite sex. I can think of half a dozen times perfectly good friendships have been ruined because I wanted to have a serious discussion about politics but he kept invading my private space and playing with my hair.
It’s happened to me several times that a guy asked me out *repeatedly*, even though I said no every time and made up increasingly flimsy excuses to stay away from him. I felt like Elizabeth Bennet in Pride and Prejudice, when she says she’s not the kind of girl that lies to men. Because, guys, YOU’RE ACCUSING HER OF BEING A LIAR. She’s said she’s not interested, and if you keep coming you’re saying you don’t believe her. At the very least, you think you know her feelings better than she does, and if you keep hunting her she’ll eventually realize that you’re right, she’s been madly in love with you all along.
I mean, we talk so often about women manipulating men, but I think it’s just as important that men don’t try to manipulate women. If she says she’s not interested, BACK OFF. All your attempts to ‘make’ her like you are selfish and rude and creepy and stalkerish.
June 15th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Although much of the theory seems to clarify things quite nicely, I have to agree with JillBE in one sense. Almost every single one of my close guy friends has been one of my crushes at one time. Its the infatuation that causes me to even have the desire to get to know them as friends. Eventually it cools off however, and a good friendship forms. Granted, there are some young men I would never even consider dating that I am on friendly terms with. The two ladders still exist: once I’ve realized that my attraction is nonromantic, the guy is placed upon the friendship ladder where he will probably always remain.
June 16th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Oh, and BillyDee is absolutely right. If you are overly nice to me and can’t just make your own decisions once in awhile or tease me when you think I’m acting crazy, I will probably break up with you. Its not any fun at all to be dating a pushover.
November 4th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
[…] ships: Ladder Theory Posted on February 21, 2006 by cbgiammona Ochuk posts an interesting article on the “Ladder Theory” from a Christian perspective. I must admit tha […]
December 25th, 2007 at 2:34 am
Wow, in my experience, this is completely true.
As for how to move from the ‘friends’ ladder to the ‘good’ ladder, Dustan’s points were great - show her that you’re thinking of her as more than a friend, before you come out and tell her. Most women won’t react well to being asked out if you’re close friends and have given them no indication that you see her in another way. And then, you need to make the leap at the right time. Problem is, if you’re at the top of the friends ladder, try to jump and get rejected, that’s a long long way to fall. If you’ve only just met her, she’ll just think you’re shallow. BUT if you’re on a relatively low rung of the friends ladder - ie you’ve known each other for a little time but aren’t TOO close yet, you still might fall into the abyss, but when you get back on, you might find yourself on the good ladder, because you’ve encouraged her to see you from a different perspective.
I’m sending this link to all my friends, it’s genius.
January 5th, 2008 at 3:44 am
I find this all interesting, but there’s one point that is at odds with the experiences I’ve had with several male friends (I’m female).
Here’s the point that is made:
“there are no women that men want to be friends with whom he would not consider having some sort of romantic or sexual relationship. Hence, a man can be “friends” with a woman who is low on his ladder but he is never sexually disinterested in her.”
Now I’ll describe my most recent experience:
I have a male friend of over a year who over the last few months has made the jump from my friend ladder to my good ladder. We were having dinner and he asked me how my dating life has been. I told him there’s been practically nothing for about 6 years. He told me that was a shame; that I’m “pretty, intelligent, and have a great body.” “You deserve to be in a good relationship”, he said.
—-
Fast-Forward two weeks…
—-
We’re hanging out again and having dinner, and he tells me about how he’s in counseling to get over his first and only serious long-term relationship, and how the relationship was really troubled and unhealthy. He’s in the final stages of putting that behind him, though for some sick reason he still hopes to have her back. I told him, “Perhaps what you need is a good, healthy, nurturing relationship, so you can see what that feels like and you wouldn’t want anything to do with her again. Would your counselor advise you to seek that out?” And he said, “my counselor would love that.” At that point, I found the courage to ask, “well, what about me?” And he replied, “I’m not attracted to you in that way.” So we’re still just friends.
So it seems to me that a man can see that a woman is attractive, but not be sexually attracted to her, AND value her friendship. In our case, we are of different races. I’m black, and almost all of my friends and people that I see and meet are generally non-black. Some people just aren’t interested to people of a different race, and unfortunately for me, most non-blacks may consider dating any race BESIDES black. (It may also be a reason, though not the only one, why I haven’t dated in 6 years. And no, I am not ugly, inside or out!)
So under certain circumstances, it seems to me that a man CAN be a close, intimate friend to an attractive woman and not be interested in her sexually.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:55 am
If you’ve fallen into the abyss and still want to pursue her you have two options.
1) Often women just don’t realize a guy friend could have feelings for her. Work your way back up the friends ladder and hopefully she’ll realize how valuable your friendship is and after pursuing her once, she has in her mind you as a potential “good” ladder person. I know a guy who was thrown into the abyss 3 times before he dated and eventually married this one lady.
2) Work your way up her friends ladder letting her know over and over you are not interested in dating her. This is a deceptive way of doing things but after a while, she will start to wonder why you are not interested in her thus will place you on her “good” ladder so that she can rise up your ladder. I know a lot of ugly guys who have done this and have snagged some really attractive females. It never lasted since he was treating her as an object to be won and not as a child of God but it works.
January 16th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Woww…. This was linked on a Boundless blog response and I totally never thought of this, but agree! My friends and I called it the “potential” group though, not the good ladder. But same thing! I have had men switch before though.. but it is true that they get categorized early, or stay on the good until I get to know them better, then they may be moved to the friends ladder.
And the men’s one ladder clears up so much and makes so much sense.. wow.
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